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Letters on League Restructuring and Playing Senior Rugby at 17
posted Feb 4 2010
League Restructuring
Hi Mark:
I think it is important that the rugby community understands what is happening with the recommended league restructuring. Your comment this morning that "for 2011 there appears no move to relegate three teams therefore the Premier will remain with 12 teams" is an understandable conclusion to draw from the result of the Extraordinary General Meeting that was held on Sunday morning, but it is not accurate.
The resolution failed to win approval, but the issue is not going away. I fully expect that it will be back on the table at the BC Rugby AGM in June and that, at a minimum, a motion (which will only require 50% approval) will be put forward to adopt the recommended changes. We would have liked to have had this all agreed prior to the season, but, having been unable to accomplish that, clubs need to fully understand that the current season's results are likely to determine their positions in a three tier structure commencing in a year's time. The clubs that were at the meeting are aware of this, and we will be communicating further with our members on the subject.
The Competive Schedule Review was undertaken with the objective of finding a league structure for the BC Rugby competitions and "locking-in" that structure for a number of years. The objective of the weekend's meeting was to approve a new by-law that would have committed us to having a three tier competition for three years. The rationale for the recommendation was thoroughly debated; suffice it to say that the main drivers were to provide a way for clubs to join (and exit) CDI Premier and developing appropriate competitions for all of the 25 clubs who compete in the CDI Premier and Province Wide leagues. Concerns around carded players, import players and the enforcement of the import player rules clouded the basic issue somewhat and the resolution missed passing by .4 of 1%. A number of the dissenting clubs acknowledged the likelihood of the re-structuring being approved in June and indicated that with some of their concerns addressed, they would be prepared to vote in favour.
We spend a lot of time fretting about CDI Premier and not enough focusing on youth development and growing the membership of our clubs. Getting the league restructuring agreed, and hopefully entrenched for a period of time, would be a significant help in clearing BC Rugby's agenda to deal with some of these important issues.
Thanks for your work with BC Rugby News, I'm looking forward to your and your contributors coverage of the Spring competitions.
Regards,
Blake Lewis
BC Rugby
Playing Senior Rugby at 17
Having just read the article in regards to 17 and 18 year old players, being involved in senior mens rugby, I get the feeling that the writer thinks it should be ok for these young guys to play not only in the senior ranks in BC but also in the international 7s.
I for one strongly disagree with this, and yes it is for me a safety issue and not an insurance motivated issue.
The simple fact of the matter is, that very very few young athletes are ready for the high level of impact in today's rugby games, when they are "punching above their weight"
James Connor's name was mentioned in the article, but the reality is he was used very sparingly at senior mens level, and seemed to be cotton wooled for the most part for his first years involvement. When he did finally play he made a real hash of it.
Looking at the history of "youngest internationals" you will find other than one notable exception that they are all from a bygone era when the players were a lot lighter and the impact in the game much less severe.
The youngest international player to play for the Wallabies was Brian Ford who debuted in 1957 at 18yrs and 90 days.
The youngest Springbok was Jack Hartley who debuted in 1891 at 18 yrs and 18days.
The youngest Welsh international was Norman Biggs who debuted in 1888 at the age of 18 yrs and 49 days.
What marks this as different to today is the fact that when the Springboks toured the United Kingdom in 1906 1907, the media of the day touted them as giants, where the reality was that out of the 15 forwards that travelled on the tour only 6 of them were over 6 feet tall, with the tallest being 6 foot 3 - more remarkable is the fact that not one of the forwards was over 200lbs.
I can see an exceptional "young athlete" fitting into a team like that, but in my opinion it no longer works in a day when the average weight of the backs is heavier that the average weight of the forwards in the previous eras.
This brings me to the "one" true exception to this rule - Jonah Tali Lomu who debuted for the All Blacks at the young age of 19 yrs and 45 days, not 17 yrs or 18 yrs old. Jonah was of course very physically ready for the demands of the game at that time, being that he was 6 foot 5 tall and weighed 254 pounds. I wonder what the media of 1906/ 07 would have thought of him.
Certainly no disrespect to the two young athletes mentioned in the article, but I doubt if they are as physically ready as Jonah Lomu was, and he was 19 let alone 17. The sevens circuit today has seen a shift in the last ten years to much bigger and stronger players, contesting the breakdowns more vigorously than ever before.
The Fijians, Tongans and Samoans along with NZ play a physically dominating style of game, and the only real person of a small stature that I have seen in the last five years have any real success would be William Ryder.
In summary I think introducing young athletes to this environment is wonderful, but we need to focus on taking the best available players to get us back in the top tier circuit. I would like to see us slowly introduce the younger players with a careful and considerate approach to the safety aspect of the sport.
There has been too many serious injuries in our sport lately because a 3rd division game is short of players so we as coaches and team members get Johnny young guy to - "play on the wing".
Sadly two years ago at the Rowing Club vs Chilliwack a "young guy playing on the wing" broke his neck. That is something that can NEVER be undone, and the damage too astronomical to have any par value in sports.
Yours in Rugby
Colin Skinner
Playing Senior Rugby at 17 - Australian perspective
I am Australian and have been here for about 6 of the last 8 years now. Going back to Tim Horan and Jason Little, they were both selected to play for the Wallabies before being selected for QLD (Super 6 as it was then) just after their 18th birthdays. I am sure if I dig deeper i can find other more recent examples.
Also the Australian team at last years U20 WC had roughly 10 Super 14 players who if you remember gave the Canadian team a nice "how`s your father". The NZ and SA teams both had similar numbers of S14 players in their squads. Until the issue of blooding younger players has been rectified then BC and Canadian rugby will continue to under achieve.
It it beyond my comprehension how Hockey Canada and the NHL can be so well ran and structured from the grassroots all the way to the very top (players, leagues, coaching and refs included) but no one can apply a similar approach to rugby in this country. It really grinds my gears!
How does that old saying go... The definition of idiocy is doing the same thing over and expecting a different outcome?
Readers Speak Out About Funding, Ric Suggitt's USA Signing, and the State of the Union in 2009
[reader's comments below]
posted January 13 2010
The Role of BCRN as Watchdog
Hi Mark,
I've been an avid reader of your website for the past couple of years and I want to tell you THANKS! I know you do it because you love rugby and Canada and it shows. I play club rugby (3rds), I coach at the school I work at and have coached some regional stuff in the past, so for a guy like me that doesn't really know the ins and outs of the national scene, it is quite informative and sometimes frustrating learning about how Rugby Canada is being run (especially in the last 3-4 years). I quite enjoy your editorials and when you ask the hard questions about the finances at the RC headquarters. It is nice to know that someone is telling the rest of the country how a few bureaucrats are affecting the way that rugby is played and run in our country. Please keep up the good work and keep the pressure on those RC guys to start doing a better job!
University 7s Team Funding Original Article Here
Hi Mark,
I read this latest article on BCRN and felt compelled to write you as BCRN is the ‘sounding board’ for the rugby community.
The following excerpted from the article (emphasis added) sparked my concern:
Applications All applications are due by January 8th, 2010 and must be accompanied by a $500 deposit cheque, payable to CIS Men’s Rugby 7s. Upon selection to the Team Canada selection camp, the deposit becomes non-refundable.
Why are prospects required to submit a deposit with their application? Why does the deposit becomes non-refundable upon selection to the camp?
We are talking about students who need to focus their funds on their educational first, especially in the middle of the school year. January is also a financial recovery month for most people after the holiday season. Lastly, having to pay for the ‘privilege’ of attending a selection camp – well, there’s a sure fire way of discouraging applications and of not realizing the potential that a camp could have on a player’s development and commitment to the sport.
A notice on RC from September indicates the CIS will be sending both a men’s and women’s team of 12 players, 3 staff, 1 therapist and 1 referee. Staff and therapist “Must be able and willing to pay the full costs of participation, including preparatory events and camps. Total cost is estimated at a maximum of $4,000.” So, I think it’s reasonable to believe that forfeited deposits are not going towards their costs.
I found no information regarding how many applicants will be selected to participate in the selection camp. 35 players participated in the recent Canadian Nations Sevens Trial and the last national team carried approximately half that number of players (17) on its roster. Therefore, it seems reasonable to believe that, at minimum, 24 men will be selected to attend the university selection camp. Half won’t make the team and the organizers will come away with those participants’ forfeited deposits totaling $6,000! If a women’s’ team is in the works, too, then that amount will potentially double!
Sounds like a money grab to me! If not, potential applicants have the right to know why their deposit is non-refundable upon selection to the camp and how those funds will be used. Nonetheless, I think that it is unreasonable and counterproductive to strengthening interest in the sport. Please let me know if I have overlooked any information and/or if I am ‘way out there’ with my view of this issue.
Thanks,
Shane
2009 Not a Good Year for Canadian Rugby
Hello Mark,
An interesting synopsis of results for the Senior Men’s program for 2009. Senior men go backwards in world rankings... U-20's drop to the second tier of competition... U-17's lose twice to the Americans... Sevens lose their status as a regular member of the circuit... 2009 not a good year!!!!!!!!
Ric Suggitt Heading South
Hello Mark,
Just read the news on Ric, not a shock really is it? RC shafted him and he must feel payback is due, based on how he was released and never approached/appointed to be a tremendous resource to RC & other up and coming national coaches.
I personally learnt so much from Ric and was privileged to spend lots of time with him observing his Sevens sessions and thoughts, he certainly whet my appetite for the short game.
He will be sorely missed in Canada, but like so many before and after him, he is disposable to RC if they feel he doesn't have the right face, voice or attitude.
I know RC tries to get it right and develop the game appropriately, but one thing you can’t ignore are experience and track records, Ric didn't get the national roles because he was a bad coach, he also didn't get released because he suddenly became a bad coach too, he got released on who Ric is, a person who supports his athletes 100%, works tirelessly to get an edge or step up in the levels of development, but unfortunately for Ric, he is a person who stands up verbally for what he feels is right and RC don't like that, well someone in RC didn't like that by all accounts.
I wish Ric well in his new venture and without a doubt know that he will succeed in the US, if allowed to stamp his style on the athletes around him, I just hope he doesn't get held back in his methodology.
I feel with the resources and proactive support of USA rugby, Ric will create a team that will challenge any team in world sevens in the women's game.
That's my thoughts Mark!
Steve Bennett's Letter to Rugby Canada - Follow Up to "OH CANADA!!!!"
posted Dec 28 2009
[ed. I won't add to Steve's letter to Rugby Canada but I will tell this story though. I was having lunch with the organizers of the Abbotsford 7s earlier this month and in the run of the conversation one thing became apparent, “Rugby Canada don’t know who they are supposed to be”, that came out of my mouth and suddenly everyone stopped talking to reflect on the implications of the statement. It hit true for all of us. The Abby 7s people were treated as lepers when they first contacted Rugby Canada to get their involvement, they were seen as competitors, usurpers who wanted a piece of the rugby pie. Eventually through the calm demeanour and communication skills of the Abby 7s organizers Rugby Canada were brought on board and a year later are thinking this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Rugby Canada thought they were tournament organizers in competition with the Abby 7s, not realizing they occupied a level above that to co-ordinate and encourage tournament organizers. I’ve had the same experience as a rugby news outlet, Rugby Canada think they’re a rugby media organization in competition with BCRN not realizing they should be occupying a position above that co-ordinating and encouraging enterprises like BCRN. If they took all their efforts they put into trying to be a media organization and worked with the existing players in print, TV and internet media, rugby would be a lot further ahead at a lot lower cost. And that issue of “not knowing who they are supposed to be” is causing a lot of friction throughout the rugby community as efforts are duplicated while others go wanting, with an attitude of “control with an iron fist” instead of “manage with insight” they spend a lot of time alienating the existing volunteer structure while ignoring areas where they should be front and foremost... and that’s the way I see it.]
Steve Bennett’s Open Letter to Rugby Canada
So after recently posting “OH CANADA” I was invited by Doug Crosse from Rugby Canada to offer up some suggestions for them to consider during their 2010 planning sessions.
The first thing I am sad to say I was right about is that this is a Province where apathy rules. I have heard so many negative comments about RC in clubhouses and practice fields over the years and from people at all levels, playing or non-playing that you’d think they’d jump at a chance to speak their mind and with complete anonymity. It is no wonder that we have a Provincial Government that walks all over us.
Of the responses I received though, all were very constructive and I have compiled some suggestions for RC to consider. With respect to anonymity I won’t say anymore than they come from a good cross section of the playing and non-playing rugby community including some that have played here from overseas and since returned to their native countries.
‘Communication’ and ‘accountability’ and the lack of were the number one complaints from all responders. One gentleman mentioned that I might not refer to RC as being as useful as ‘chocolate teapots’ if they communicated to us what they were trying to achieve. I agree with you and communication has to be improved upon. I will express once more though that my statement is based on real time experience and the disgraceful way that our top level female players have been treated during the NWL over the past few years and at the very top level including insults such as having to buy their own pillows to stay in University accommodation to even being asked to pay for the national team jersey!
At the NWL level the lack of organisation and consideration has been so bad that the players have endured stale, smoke filled hotel rooms and hallways – no practice facilities and the final insult and I quote – “we didn’t think they’d be bothered if they won a medal or not so we didn’t budget for them”
For the inaugural 2007 NWL season each Province were given 12 balls, 6 water bottles and a ball bag. This has been the only equipment supplied to the NWL teams over the past 3 years and BC spent this past summer using left over practice balls from the 2005 Japan Cup. I wonder if the coaches and managers of ARC teams would find this to be an acceptable situation. I am told that the IRB will provide funds based on the men’s national team performance and world ranking. This money then gets disbursed at RC’s discretion. Given the men’s performance and world ranking of late, I’d say the women will continue to starve.
I would now expect a response stating that the home province was responsible for the NWL issues, but in my opinion – if RC sanctions an event, they should be overseeing the whole process and not apportioning blame elsewhere which seems to be the norm.
To quote a person who responded to me: "The CRU and BCRU - Post what the goals are, the budgets, the sources of funding for the year and do quarterly reports. This is not just for the national team or the premier grade. Put performance matrixes for the paid staff and hold them accountable. Post BCRU and CRU minutes. This all comes across as an old boys club because it is too hard to know what is going on."
In order to have open communication you have to be accountable for your actions. I think this might be one of the reasons that RC doesn’t share information with us. Are they holding themselves accountable for their actions at the moment? Moving forward – those of us who care, would like to see quarterly reviews of Rugby Canada’s progress towards their goals and execution of their plan. We all pay our dues and so I think we are entitled to expect the right people representing us and being fiscally responsible.
I would also like to see what the job descriptions for each employee of RC are, what their goals are and their level of accountability if not achieved.
Another suggestion from a prominent voice in BC – "Reduce operating and administration expenses to free up half a million dollars for new rugby initiatives".
This would relate to the points above and a question that I would like to see answered publicly.
A couple of responses representing male and female players who have experienced working with Rugby Canada as top level players both mentioned how they believe certain members of RC staff are "detrimental to rugby in Canada and its reputation around the world".
Those whom I have spoken to have all seen Canada’s results in Japan as a dismal failure and this was followed by a less than convincing performance against Russia. Simple question from the masses – Why? The women recently went 1 and 1 versus France. They won the first game, but didn’t get the job done in the 2nd – why? We know that both teams give every inch of their being during the game and work extremely hard off it, but we’re not getting the results we should now expect. What’s missing?
I have worked with and learned from the Women’s national team coaches and think I can safely say that the enthusiasm within the camp and thirst for success has never been so high. The coaching has never been better. I have listened to what Kieran Crowley has to say and believe in him. I haven’t had the opportunity to attend any of his coaching sessions. I also have no doubt in my mind that these coaches have adapted to working with one hand tied behind their back both in terms of finances and working with an organising body that appears to be dysfunctional at best. You only need ask past team Managers to find out how they have struggled dealing with RC and trying to do the best for their teams.
I hear from some of the women that it is hard to represent a country that keeps abusing them financially and treating them like 2nd class citizens.
Quote:
“I'm so furious with Rugby Canada at the moment... disgusted is a better word... I don't even consider myself lucky to be representing them. Harsh words I know but I'm tired of being swept under the carpet and patted on the back every time we try to raise our concerns”.
Game Coverage - not what it should be is it? I don’t tune into all the games, but every time I do, I listen to excuses from the commentators as to why the sound isn’t working or there is a feed delay etc, etc. To quote some of those who responded – “bush”, “brutal”, “rubbish”. I didn’t get one single positive response pertaining to the coverage of the National team games. One response from New Zealand – “I have always had a healthy respect for Canadian rugby players; they play with passion and huge spirit. I feel sorry for them when I see the games played live over the internet and the commentators refer to the players as #12 and #5 because they don’t know the names. The sound craps out and then picture goes down. This is front line representation of Canadian Rugby and I see heaps of people posting derogatory comments based on what they see on the screen. I don’t know who is in charge, but do they have a clue?"
Two pages in and I could easily write a dozen more. You’re already losing focus so I will go into point form of the suggestions I and others have. They are in no particular order and I am posting them according to order of e-mail responses
• One, unified season for the entire country
• Further development of NWL to include US teams. Fully funded by sponsors, Rugby Canada and USA Rugby
• Men’s North American Super league with TV deal
• Full marketing plan and budget – made public
• Produce and make public, quarterly financial statements
• Additional funding for Coaching clinics and coaches education
• Additional funding for grassroots rugby
• Additional funding to develop top class referees
• Fall seasons in various provinces to be used to groom top level young players in Academy league format
• Full breakdown of operating costs/expenses including salaries for Rugby Canada employees
• Full explanation why we have sent 10 players to play in North Wales
• What’s the goal for the 2011, 2015 and 2019 world cups?
• What is going to be done off the field to enable our National Teams to perform better on it?
• What’s the plan to bring international teams to Canada to play our women and not keep sending them overseas?
• What do you plan to do to trim the fat at head office?
• What’s the plan to improve and develop open communication between RC and its members?
These are responses from what I consider to be a small percentage of rugby people here in BC and our friends from New Zealand, England and Scotland.
So, Doug, as Communications Manager you have asked the question of how you can improve. We have given you some answers and reasons. We’re not in the mood to be placated, but look to you and those at Head Office to provide us with a plan of action we can believe and have faith in.
Over to you...
OH CANADA!!!! - HOW DO WE MOVE RUGBY FORWARD IN CANADA AND BC
[ed. the views expressed here are not necessarily the views of BCRN or the editor. If you wish to have your say email editor@bcrugbynews.com.]
from Steve Bennett
posted Dec 18 2009
It’s interesting reading all the different points of view regarding the best course of action for rugby in BC and Canada. We have the side lobbying for more elite development whether it is through the resurgence of the Pacific Pride program or players being moved to Europe, and those doing likewise for an improved domestic program. We also have those who would like to see a nationwide unified season and league to boot. Truly, we are caught between a rock and hard place. We have to focus on both development of our best players and keep up with the pace of the elite rugby nations as best we can and we have to invest in the development and quality of our domestic programs and players therein. After reading the posts from others you could easily believe that we are solely controlled by the IRB and allowed to develop as fast as they would let us. After all, we don’t seem to be able to promote and raise awareness for our game, enough to generate some serious dollars to pay for development anyway. If you rely on hand outs – you remain impoverished.
As a Province I think we have some very capable and experienced people running our programs and compared to the lack of organisation I have experienced dealing with other Provinces, I can tell you that BC is way ahead of the game – not only on the field, but off it. However, we do have division. The Island and Mainland don’t see eye to eye often enough. The VIRU – VRU – FVRU waste so much time scrapping for acknowledgement and recognition that the whole point of development and pro-active planning gets lost. Why do we have 3 unions for what is somewhat less than 30 clubs? I’ve always been baffled by that and as a player always hated playing the same teams every season. I know someone will come up with a ton of excuses, but I’m tired of hearing them. Excuses don’t propel you forward, they leave you standing and watching others pass you by. My impression of dealing with Rugby Canada is that they are as useful as a chocolate tea pot. That experience has been through the National Championships and National Women’s League and I will let it go there without going into a rant and off topic.
Like many others I have plenty of ideas that could propel us forward; but in order to do that we need people with vision, drive and perseverance, and who happen to be members of the ‘Old Boy’ network as that seems to be how you get a job with the IRB or RC. Sadly ‘Old Boy” and ‘pro-active’ rarely go hand-in-hand. We need people who set their sights on a Rugby League in North America – one that competes for TV ratings with MLS. I know – you think I’m nuts for even suggesting it and probably just thought to yourself “it will never happen”. It won’t, if you have that attitude. We have made inroads towards it with the ARC and I am glad to see that we are now creating a clear path from high school rugby to the national teams and for both sexes. However, we are a rugby nation of big talkers and also a rugby nation where ‘apathy’ is rife, especially in this Province!
I have to say that I do not see the Pacific Pride as the answer to improved development of our players. The program had merit and players did develop more than they would have at their clubs, but the level of competition is not there every Saturday and that is what players need. It is my opinion that you only get better by playing up. The Pacific Pride played down and were never fully tested. We do need to send players to other parts of the world in order for them to get better and to be exposed to the best rugby. Argentina have had some great success doing it, but I have no idea how it impacted their domestic program. Please do not compare the World Cup teams of 2003, 2007 and 2011 with those of the 90’s and suggest we were better then. We were as amateur as the rest of the world for most of the 90’s and have since been left behind, living on those IRB handouts.
My question for those who would like to see our best players playing at home is: What do you think it would achieve? We would see better rugby on a Saturday afternoon – maybe a handful more people will come and watch? Many of the players who currently play in the Premier League (I use that term loosely) would not make it onto teams playing in the National Division 3 teams or even teams in the London Leagues in England. Would the fans of the stronger domestic league now want to expose those who are playing top level rugby in Europe to our Premier League? I think the path is set for our future, but we just have to admit to it. We can develop young players here, readying them for a career in rugby overseas. This will help our National team get stronger and we hope that those who have experienced the highest level of rugby such as Gareth Reese and Mike James, will continue to come home and share their experiences and knowledge with us. They have a vast rugby knowledge and coupled with those who have great business skills, vision and a passion to see Canada succeed (not to say the aforementioned haven’t) we can look to develop Rugby in Canada, with its Provinces being pro-active and self-sufficient. It seems that right now, we have too many people at RC drawing a salary, blowing smoke up the asses of the right people and sharing in a few wobbly handshakes. Not the people we want to run our programs. I speak with an English accent, but I am Canadian and proud of it. I speak my mind too often because I often let my passion and emotion for this great sport get the better of me. I’m not afraid to say what I think as I believe in it. You may not, but what do you offer in return? Sit on the fence long enough and you’ll get splinters in your arse!
Reaction on North Wales editorial; From Currie Cup to BC Premier
[ed. comments except as noted]
posted Dec 10 2009
We got some reaction to the editorial on sending players to North Wales, basically one pro, one con, and one that said basically as long as the carded players don’t get to play for Island clubs we can send them anywhere, that one was from the mainland by the way. The delicious irony in all this is I found out yesterday that we have a player in our midst who has played Currie Cup level for the Cheetahs and the Leopards. Warren de Bruin who helped the Ravens win the VRU championship has quite the impressive rugby resume, you can see video highlights of him in action in the Currie Cup at this link. I say Bravo Ravens and Bravo Warren for coming to play here. If BCRN had the budget I’d use it to make sure each Premier team had at least two players with Currie Cup or Air NZ Cup experience. Imagine how that would raise the level of play and their presence on the team would be a great learning experience for our domestic players. The irony of course would be Rugby Canada watering down our domestic competition by shipping our best young players overseas while BC pumps up its domestic competition by bringing in overseas professionals. I believe young people use an expression like LMFAO.
North Wales from Douglas de la Mare
Hi Mark,
Thanks again for keeping the site going and providing the voice of the public. I was just having a read at another of your interesting articles.
There seems to be a awful lot of negativity towards the 10 BC premier players heading to Wales! And also a lot of people wanting to re-start the u-23 pride team. I have to disagree with both. The 10 BC players who are off
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